I’m Steven Jack Butala.

I’m Jill DeWit, and this is The Land Academy Show.

This is episode number 2068. All week, we’ve been talking about what works and what doesn’t work in your land business, what to add on, what to take away, and things like that. Jill and I have a very candid conversation about the truth about how we’ve kept food on the table for 30 years flipping land, and through all the ups and the downs, which I can’t count the number of people I’ve been on a first name basis with that are not this industry anymore. Not because of choice but because stuff happens.

They make decisions. They plan for stuff and make a decision. They over-leveraged, fill in the blank.

Discord Question

Each day on the show, we answer a question from our Land Academy member Discord forum. We take a deep dive into land-related topics at your request.

Daniel wrote, “What’s the best way to find a person to answer the phone and generate deals the way Jack and Jill do? I know I’m leaving money on the table with my current mailers.” This is me. The first thing I would do would be if you’re in a pinch, start with CatLive while you’re hiring. Don’t wait. Get the mailer out, get stuff coming in. Use CatLive to screen the calls, and then as best as you can, call them back, create those deals, and move forward.

When you can, you come up for air and you’re looking to fill in this piece, then I would first start with looking within the group. There are so many people in our group who are smart and quick on the phone that are not the data people. They are more like me. It’s pretty easy to put in partnership in that area in Discord like, “I need to Jill. I needed a Jill yesterday,” and watch how many come up, and then I would test them. Don’t have two phone calls and go, “Now, we’re a team.” I’d say, “Let’s do a mailer together and see how it goes,” and then go from there.

At the end of every Career Path, I asked everybody individually and we went around the table, “Did you get what you wanted or what you needed out of this Career Path?” One guy last time said, “Yeah, I did. I understand I need to find a Jill.” That was his whole takeaway from Career Path and I’m sure he’s doing great. He’s a super bright guy, but some people need a Jack. Some people need a Jill. Very few times you have both talents.

You have the time to do them both. That’s one thing too. Should you be spending all your time doing every single thing?

I had Jill’s job for years. I didn’t suck at it. I did. Once we got together, I just ten steps back and said, “What if Jill was involved in this from the beginning? What would our yield be?” Plus I don’t like doing it. I like doing the data part.

There is that.

Flipping Land

Today’s topic is the truth about how we’ve kept food on the table for 30 years flipping land. Jill?

I say spoken like an 8. I don’t like it. I’m not doing it and I don’t have to. I’m an 8.

She’s talking about the Enneagram Test. Please take that.

I’m a 7.

You and your spouse should take the Enneagram Test and have a conversation.

This is higher on our list because it’s something that we do in our Career Path. We want to know who we’re working with. You need to know who you’re working with, and then it helps you evaluate, like this whole question today about I need a Jill, finding a partner. Maybe you know you’re a 1, so you probably need a 7. You know whatever you needed this. If nothing more, at least I know what their personality is. We know that both going on. Now, I better understand the person, why they think, and why they react the way they do. I don’t always love it, but now I have a little better Insight. That’s where it’s coming from.

Here’s a great example. I think of the financial implications of every decision that Jill and I make first. Before we are even done discussing whatever we’re discussing, socially and professionally, I’m thinking about how much money we’re going to lose or make, what it’s going to do to our balance sheet, and now at the stage, our retirement scheme that I put together and all of that. That never entered Jill’s mind.

Think of every financial implication of every decision you are going to make. Share on X

Now it doesn’t have to because I have you. I’m not arguing.

I’m not complaining,

I don’t want to run around with a black card like an idiot kind of thing. Jack will say no at some point.

She’s never been irresponsible about money. I’m not talking about that. I’m just saying if both of us looked at the financial implications of everything first, it would be a pretty boring life. There would be no flare.

Where would we live?

We’d never got to dinner. We wear old clothes. It will not be good.

We’d be living in a 1962 ranch house in Arkansas that was handed down by a grandparent. I would be figuring out how to do my dry cleaning at home.

There’d be no dry cleaning. You would learn how to sew.

There is that. I will darn all your socks.

Not my socks. Make your own clothes.

That too. All of that.

They are real examples actually, but you want to be in a partnership, socially or professionally or both, with somebody who’s got different talents and sees things differently than you do. I think most people see that as a huge pain in the ass. Somebody’s pushing back, but the fact is there’s a yin and yang to it and it makes people successful. How many times have you seen a rock band break up because they all hate each other, but they work great together and create some amazing stuff as artists? They then go off on some solo thing and it’s the worst thing ever. They’re loud about it. They say, “I’m finally getting to do what I wanted to do.” You should never be doing what you want to do. You should always have somebody in your life that’s putting some balance to it.

I want The Police. Just kidding. That’s your band. Anyway, the topic about this. What is it about us? I know a lot of people look to us as some of the heavy-hitter patriarchs in this industry because it’s true. Everything we’ve done is because Jack figured this out on his own. Nobody taught him. Nobody helped him. He figured this out on his own over 30 years ago, then I was lucky enough to come in 16 years ago and have him teach me.

I didn’t figure this out on my own. I came in and he’s like, “Here’s what we’re doing.” I put my spin on it and here we are today. Ten years ago, almost in 2025, we did The Land Academy. There’s a lot to be said for our experience and weathering the storm. You brought up some good points earlier too. It breaks my heart, but there are people we used to sit with. We talked about going to auctions in person. I remember meeting other people in the land space. There are not a lot of us fifteen years ago.

Maybe ten people.

We all knew each other and who was working in this area. It was sweet and we’d meet up in auctions sometimes.

We’d buy each other’s properties.

We help each other. Our sweet spot back in the day was we knew how to buy it better than anybody, and that’s because of his data, and then I would get the deals on the phone because that was how I did it. I knew how to get great prices. We would come up with these amazing deals and then we’d flip them to other investors. That was our whole brand and butter for a long time. I loved that. I didn’t have to market anything. I would send out a spreadsheet to my platinum buyers’ list.

That’s what it’s called.

All these other investors in our space would buy it from me, buy from us, and then mark them up and sell them on terms. I didn’t want to do that. We’ve done it. I’m like, “That’s way more work than I want to do. We’re making more money doing it this way. I’d rather sell it to you, get the cash, and build up more versus these payments every month.” That was amazing.

A couple of things that we did. I’m trying to think of what we did that made us unique. It’s not only who we are as part of all this, but one of the things that you said a long time ago, and I think it’s every time there’s a downturn, I’m grateful because you said we’re not borrowing a dollar. That was one thing along the way. Even back then, we didn’t have equity partners. We bought what we could afford and saved it up. When there was any downturn in anything, I had the stuff to sell. It was paid for. That for me is one of the main reasons we kept food on the table for decades.

That is number one.

Paid for property. I’m not selling it for what I thought I was going to sell for, but I’m still making a profit. It’s all going to be fine.

Leverage is one of those things where if you bring it up in a room full of ten people, you are going to get ten ideas and ten pretty strong opinions about whether or not to borrow money, what to borrow it at, if it’s associated with revenue, if it’s a primary mortgage, and on and on and on. Should you ever have educational debt? Our role has been we have no debt ever. That’s it. Right now, including a primary mortgage on a primary residence, so that’s taking it a little bit far.

It saved our ass so many times. It’s not so many times. Every time there’s a downturn. We’re in a downturn right now. It’s harder for all of us including us to sell some property that’s sitting on the market. In the past, like in 2008 and 2009, it was terrible. Jill came in and I thought the business was over. She came in and got on the phone and bought some property and sold a lot of the property that we had when I was sitting around saying it was over.

I started to realize that the type of dynamic personality is essential and success. Her personality has kept food on the table and gotten us out of a couple of jams pretty seriously where she would come to me and say, “How can we price this? I know we’re going to lose money and I know it kills you. but we have to do it to keep moving forward.” By the way, this is how she knows how to get me. I have these two lights acquisitions lined up that are worth we’ll make it up.

We got to move some stuff around. The partnership that I have with her has kept on the table pretty serious. Having no debt and putting the food on the table, Jill and I have been in social relationships in the past before we knew each other, where they were not on the same team that was building a little mini-empire, Land empire was not in the cards for them.

They loved their little jobs and that was it. When we got together, that changed pretty dramatically. Our relationship has got food on the table. No debt and has kept food on the table. A big thing that I learned the hard way, and this is number three, is having a single point of failure. We have now a lot of property that brings in rental income. When you look at it financially, stand-alone financially doesn’t make sense, but it does cashflow and it sits there and has value. Could we use that money to go do minors, put up mobile homes, and make way more money? Yep, but it’s also more risks.

We know when to say when. I’ve seen many people come to me with tears in their eyes, mostly social saying, “All I had to do was stop doing everything and live off the money that I made in 2007, but I didn’t. I wanted a bigger house,” or “My wife wanted a bigger house.” or whatever. Those are tragic. I went and borrowed a bunch of money to expand my business when it was doing fine.

I have another thing to add to the list here. You and I won’t give up. We’re dogs with a bone. We’re going to make it work, whatever it is. That’s what I’ve learned over the years. I don’t care. Truth time. We haven’t talked about this in a long time, but we have tested other businesses all while running our land business. This is what’s so funny. They’re like, “Maybe we can be experts in the land business. Maybe we could be experts in this area.”

We always have land going. It always pays all the bills and it even frees us up to test these other things. There’s always a point that has happened in these other businesses way different Industries too. We had to look at each other and have a heart-to-heart. Do we want to be those people or do we want to stay with what we know? We always come back.

It’s the funniest thing and I know we could too. I know that if we put our heads down because this is who we are, we have the work ethic, we have the motivation, we have the self-discipline, there are years when we don’t take a vacation. We’re having fun in our RV right now. I’ll tell you, the first five years of The Land Academy, we didn’t go anywhere. We didn’t do anything. It was always Land Academy, 24/7. Both of us, in the back of our website, fix problems when things would break. I still look at it going, “I can’t believe I did all that back then. You just have to learn it. I know that we could go off and do amazing stuff and other things, but this is who we are.

The Land Academy itself is not a real serious revenue stream for us, but what it’s done has allowed us to partner and find access to money and expertise. The new vehicle that we have, we’ve done well with funding other people’s deals. When they go sideways, we go in there because we know about this. We know about this industry and turn it back into cash. The Land Academy has kept food on the table for us because we are involved in a community now. We had to create a community to get involved in it. There was nothing like this at all, the way that we have done it.

I don’t know what else. If we’re in a downturn right now, here’s how I know it all works. We’re in a downturn right now. We have a bunch of properties. It hasn’t sold. We have a few choices. In the past, we would reduce the price, get on the phone, sell on different venues, and all that. We’re not doing any of that. We’re going to weather the storm. It’ll all come back. It will probably come back in early 2025 when this election is over. I’m not worried at all.

That’s it. If you take away nothing, I hope you take away the little nuggets like don’t borrow money. Don’t borrow money is different from getting a partner. It’s okay if you have a partner and it’s their money, you’re doing this together, and you’re going to do this venture and it’s going to pay off in 90 days or when the spring thaw hits. That’s a whole different thing, but getting a loan at a bank and all that stuff, don’t do that.

Finding the right person, great, the right attitude, work ethic, and putting your head down. I hope you take all that away from this. Make those good decisions and align yourself, like he said with a community where they’ve been through it. They know what they’re doing. They’ll help you out of a jam. That’s us. Happy to help.

My final thought on this is something I’ve said in the past, but not recently. Biology works against you when it comes to money. Usually, I would say, “Follow the rules of biology and mother nature and all that stuff.” The fact is in your twenties, everybody is getting married and having kids. The worst thing you can do for your career is to get married and have children. I don’t care what your gender is, or any of that, that goes along with now I have debt.

Your biology works against you when it comes to money. Share on X

When you take a few steps back and think about a primary residence, putting a bunch of money down on a house, then having the lender allow you the privilege. This is after you gave them a bunch of your money after-tax money. Now, you have the privilege to pay them back every month. The interest rate is insane. That can screw your life up forever, and then your spouse is telling you it’s not big enough because you have more kids than you ever thought.

All these biological things and these social pressures are happening in your twenties and you need to stick your middle finger up to it. All of it. Jill and I both went and did that separately before we knew each other. Finally, after we came to our senses, luckily, early enough, we got together and said, “This is ridiculous. It’s not what I want. I don’t want any of this. I want to be rich. I want to be well with no debt. I want to do it with somebody who has the same opinion and it’s not like pulling teeth. I don’t need a new car ever. I certainly don’t need a new house. That’s crazy. A new house is crazy.

Do you mean brand new?

Yeah.

A brand new house is insane and fully leveraged like it used to be back then.

That was hard. I guess the point is, for me, those are the things that got us where we are today and I hope that helps you and nothing is crazy. One of the nice things is I think for kids growing up today, at least my kids or our kids, do whatever you want. I don’t care. There’s no right or wrong. When we were kids, “These are the steps that you do. If you don’t do them in this order, there’s something wrong with you.” Nowadays it’s like. “You don’t want kids, so what? You don’t have to. You don’t want to get married, so what? You don’t have to. You want to live together, so what? You want to rent for the rest of your life, so what?”

Whatever makes the most sense, do that. That’s where Jack is phenomenal, overkill phenomenal, which is good. He’ll run six in here. Anything I come to him, if I ever have an idea about usually a personal thing that I wanted to do, he needs two hours and he’ll come back to me with six scenarios. It’s like, “It’ll work under these conditions. Is it this one or this one? A or C? Not B, not D, not E, and hell no not enough F.”

You make these like decisions. I don’t care if it’s having a kid or buying a car or buying a company. It affects nineteen things. The first thing I do is here’s our existing balance sheet and here’s what it’s going to look like after this decision. Even if it’s a child, having a child, buying a new house and keeping the old one and renting it out, or selling the old one, or whatever it ends up, being. There’s a cause and effect to a lot of stuff.

When making one life decision, it usually affects around 19 other things in your life. Share on X

When you have six balance sheets sitting in front of you and somebody who’s on your team, you can mix that to make data-driven good decisions that will help you retire faster, and give you the freedom. In The Land Academy, we’re all for getting the shackles off. Get that W-2 shackles off, and get back control of our time. Unfortunately, The Land Academy is not going to help you make a decision about what you should do about your non-compliant spouse if that’s what’s going on. If we had land, guys, it would be a disaster, drum banging, gun totting.

I can’t even imagine. Most of the Landgels, our husband said, “Go baby go.” I’m out of your way. I’m sure the Landmen version might not be that. It’s like, “How do I get this weight off my whatever?”

You’re the best. You’re hilarious.

We should probably pause there.

Closing Words

Join us next week for five more interesting episodes. You are not alone in your real estate ambition. We are Jack and Jill, information and inspiration to buy undervalued property.